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Mustang Trim/Natural Trim vs Traditional Trim
#31
quote:
Originally posted by Hook

I don't like the trim at all. I suggest that it may be in Joe's best interest to get the Natural Trim Guy over as soon as it can be arranged.





I don't like it either.

[Sad]
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#32
I would consider boots in special circumstances, but never shoes. I have never been a fan of shoes even when I had thoroughbreds, we would pull shoes and turn out when ever we could, and the horses always seemed to move more freely barefoot. Plus the thought of driving a nail into the hoof....can't do it.

From everything I am reading, the health of the hoof hinges on it's ability to move freely, unhindered by metal. The sole and the heels make passive contact with the ground and when in movement that allows the blood to be pumped keeping everything healthy. Also what I have read in Pete Rameys book is that often horses feet need to be trimmed less with the natural trim. When I bought Joe, his feet hadn't been trimmed in about 6 months. The owners grandson or something would come into town occasionally from Colorado and trim Joe. Since I have owned Joe he has gotten trimmed every 6 weeks.

In the past with other farriers I have used, the comments were always how hard Joe's feet were. I dredged up an old photo of a young boy trimming Joe, Joe's toe and heel were all about the same length after this kid was done, it looked like Joe had blocks on his feet. This poor little guy sweated bullets trying to trim Joe's feet, he had to really exert pressure with both hands on the nippers to get through the hoof.

[Image: DSC_0052.jpg]

[Image: DSC_0048-1.jpg]

I will be interested in what this new farrier has to say about their feet, and I will certainly look into ration balancer or even a good supplement. I used Hoof and Coat by Farnam when I first bought Joe and I liked the results. Joe feet were rough when I bought him, but ironically not as as bad as they are now. I don't think I would have bought Joe with his feeting looking the way they do now.

Getting the vet and farrier to collaborate is certainly a good idea.

Thanks everyone for your input. I will keep you updated once I get the new farrier out.
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#33
quote:
Originally posted by ILoveJoe


I brought up to my farrier my concerns about Joe's feet and how much worse they are compared to Rocky. I asked if there were any vitamin deficiences or other concerns that could cause so much difference in Joe's feet this year in comparison to other more dry years. He hemmed and hawed and went on trimming Joe. I waited a few minutes just in case he was still thinking and then asked again. He said Joe is carrying more weight than Rocky so he is doing more damage to his feet. He didn't know about vitamin deficiency, I should check with a vet. He said what Joe needs is less flies and cooler weather.
<SNIP!!>



ILJ, I am FAR from an expert on anything to do with horses, and I have not read the rest of this thread. However, I can't even imagine my farrier having that kind of a response. First of all, "carrying more weight than Rocky"?? Well, a Draft carries more weight than a Mini, but aren't their feet sort of proportionate to the weight they carry? And what Joe needs is less flies and cooler weather...

Arrrrrgh! That would have done it for me. I don't expect a farrier to know everything a vet knows, but he sure as <expletive> ought to know what can cause various hoof problems. I mean, my hair cutter knows what vitamin and nutritional deficiencies will cause various hair texture/growth problems. A certain manicurist I know would find it challenging to choose between a mirror at the bottom of a swimming pool or breathing air, but she knows what can cause dry, brittle (or soft) nails.

If you like other things about this farrier (maybe I'm being hard on him) I'd opt for the meeting with vet, but half my motivation would be so I could tell the vet that you'd like to get his reading on how much this guy knows beyond ABC clipping and filing. I know if my job were to be horse's feet, I'd be knowing everything there is to know about them, from what goes into the mouth on down.
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#34
quote:
Originally posted by OnTheWay

quote:
Originally posted by ILoveJoe


I brought up to my farrier my concerns about Joe's feet and how much worse they are compared to Rocky. I asked if there were any vitamin deficiences or other concerns that could cause so much difference in Joe's feet this year in comparison to other more dry years. He hemmed and hawed and went on trimming Joe. I waited a few minutes just in case he was still thinking and then asked again. He said Joe is carrying more weight than Rocky so he is doing more damage to his feet. He didn't know about vitamin deficiency, I should check with a vet. He said what Joe needs is less flies and cooler weather.
<SNIP!!>



ILJ, I am FAR from an expert on anything to do with horses, and I have not read the rest of this thread. However, I can't even imagine my farrier having that kind of a response. First of all, "carrying more weight than Rocky"?? Well, a Draft carries more weight than a Mini, but aren't their feet sort of proportionate to the weight they carry? And what Joe needs is less flies and cooler weather...

Arrrrrgh! That would have done it for me. I don't expect a farrier to know everything a vet knows, but he sure as <expletive> ought to know what can cause various hoof problems. I mean, my hair cutter knows what vitamin and nutritional deficiencies will cause various hair texture/growth problems. A certain manicurist I know would find it challenging to choose between a mirror at the bottom of a swimming pool or breathing air, but she knows what can cause dry, brittle (or soft) nails.

If you like other things about this farrier (maybe I'm being hard on him) I'd opt for the meeting with vet, but half my motivation would be so I could tell the vet that you'd like to get his reading on how much this guy knows beyond ABC clipping and filing. I know if my job were to be horse's feet, I'd be knowing everything there is to know about them, from what goes into the mouth on down.



OTW, I felt the same way when he said that about Joe. I was just like blink, blink. Joe is shorter in height and length than Rocky

AND the clincher for me was kinda this...I have such a HARD time talking to this guy. Conversation is so difficult outside of the weather. SO this time my hubby was there and this guy was all chatty! [Sad!] Of course still couldn't answer MY questions unless I asked a few times.

I don't think you are being too hard on him, I have been feeling the same way.
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#35
It will be interesting to see if a natural trim will help Joe.

Although, I tend to agree with hmeyer; stomping at insects, the ground being hard, hooves growing faster at this time of year, and a horse being overweight, will all take their toll, no matter what. Currently, the only one of my 3 horses having decent-looking feet is the one I keep shod in front. May have to start doing the same for the other two, even though they only infrequently go anywhere.

ILJ, please keep an open mind about shoes. I would much rather keep a horse barefoot, but it just doesn't work for some horses. When it does, that is great. Also, you mentioned wanting to go on a ride this fall. If you decide to keep Joe barefoot, boots on front would give him some protection while trail riding.

EZ2SPOT
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#36
I have finished both Rameys and Jacksons books and have been doing quite a bit of online reading as well. Interestingly all the natural hoofcare articles I am reading, and this information was also in the books, state that wet conditions are the worse condtions for your horses feet. Ideal conditions are dry and hard/slightly rocky.

I also found a great website that has a lot of valuable information as well as great pictures. From this website I was able to compare photos of Joe's feet with photos of other horses. I can see where Joe's white line is stretched (NOT GOOD) and how his hooves have been breaking off to the point where his hoof wall SHOULD have been trimmed at.

Here is the website. The photos I am referring to are on the DO TRIM page about halfway down.

http://www.barefoothorse.com/

The natural hoofcare lady is coming on the 7th. I also emailed her the link to this post so she can get a preliminary on what has been going on with my guys and I hope she can take time out of her busy schedule to join the forum and contribute also.

On the website above, there is a page about FLARES....yikes! I was right to be concerned about them. I am confident that the new person will take good care of the issues I have with Joe and Rocky.

Of course I will post photos before and after.[Wink]


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#37
There's a LOT of great conversation and input on this thread[Smile]

I am so glad my grandpap gave me farrier's tools for my 12th Christmas a gazillion years ago and showed me how to use them. I would not want to be starting out today, trimming hooves because there is so much information and a lot of it is conflicting.

My grandpap would be close to 120 by now - lol lol The principles of hoof trimming that he taught me are on the border of today's "natural timmer".

He taught me to "round those toes off a litte bit", but not the agressive Mustang Roll that we see pictures of and that the Pete Ramey student MADE me do on Joker in spite of my skittishness[Tongue]

I had always looked at the hoof in two pieces (front and back), but the Pete Ramey student showed me to look at it in 5 pieces (2 heels, 2 side sections,and the toe. Correct each one separately but yet blending all the sections together to make the whole hoof. If that makes sense, I am not good at explaining things[B)]

He also explained that Joker wears his hind hooves in an unusual fashion because he is slightly sickle-hocked. That causes a horse to "twist" his hoof. Joker's right hind frog would grow clear over the outside heel if I didn't keep it cut back, the way the natural trimmer showed me to do (as needed only).

"ILOVEJOE", when I looked at Joe's hoof pictures after only 4 weeks, I would have guessed he had gone closer to 8 - 10 weeks without being trimmed.

I have hoof pictures of a couple horses that belong to a good friend in WPA who is her own natural trimming farrier. She and hubby do a lot of hard trail riding all over this U.S.A. If they see something interesting off in the distance and over the rocks, by golly, they just make their own trail.

The pictures are after three weeks of riding in Colorado before she filed the Boys down. They are in a Word document that is in Rich-text format. I have to figure out how to make them compatible with Photobucket.

She used Cavello's Simple Boots for a year, then reached a point where the boots spent all their time hooked to the saddle horn. Not every horse can meet that kind of tough goal, but her two SSH's have hooves like goats to begin with - lol




I file my horses down every two weeks because:

1. Duke is metabolic and Joker is trying his darndest to head that way and I think their hooves need to be closely monitored.
2. I have enough arthritis in both hands that pulling the nippers this time of year is almost impossible.

Everyone's hooves are a healthy, pliable hard, not cement block hard to where the hooves have a lot of chunking, chipping, and peeling; plus hooves without a sufficient amount of moisture in them can also allow for heel cracks that can lame a horse up if not cared for. I saw horses when I lived in SoCal's low desert, that had heel cracks so bad, they could not hold a shoe and the farrier wouldn't even attempt to shoe them. Just told the owner to get the horses healed up and call him then[Sad][Sad]

The folks that want to maintain a barefoot horse and are not able to do the work themselves, my thought is those horses should be trimmed every 4-5 weeks.

Accept for an 1/8th inch around the frog I NEVER touch the soles unless it is obvious they want to shed. Duke has grown big callous's on both front soles that both myself and my Pete Ramey mentor feel is needed due to his laminitic condition.

The 1/8th inch my grandpap taught me to trim around the frog, is what the Pete Ramey book says to do. Three more gold stars for one of the men I miss most in this life[Smile]

Rusty is slightly clubbed on the left front and I have always had trouble keeping the toe cracks in check until cooler weather and moister ground. The natural trimmer showed me some tricks and I was doing really well until August - lol lol Rusty has very slight toe cracks because I have trouble keeping him balanced, so I give his fronts a slight filing every week. I also spray a mix of water/white vinegar/clorox in those cracks a couple times a week to keep any fungal infections at bay.

Hoof and skin fungal infections ----- I could write a book[Sad]

I do not pay one bit of attention to the dry/wet/pasture/no pasture theories.

Except for five years in SoCal's low desert, my horses have always been on pasture during every season of the year.

It is I who makes the adjustment, in that I pay attention to the specific needs of each horse's hooves according to what the weather is doing.

As someone has already said, every horse's hoof maintenance is different. Some hooves babysit themselves, while others can "go south" while you're looking at them[Smile]

I would be ecstatic if I could clone my 13.3H Arab's over-sized one hooves onto all three of my Walkers. The only hoof issues Streeter has are the unusual wear because of his vertebra injury before I rescued him 15 years ago.

Diet is a lot more crucial than I used to think it was. Since I have gotten all my horses off oat/corn based grain and have started feeding them the same thing Duke-the-Metabolic-horse gets, their hooves have improved 100%. I also have always fed a good quality mixed grass hay; although the Arab has 30 bales of pure, locally grown, bermuda put back for the end of winter[Tongue]

At the very least, on my own personal experience, the best thing for any horse (mentally and physically) is to lose the Sweet Feed or anything with a noticeable amount of molasses.

I don't have recent pictures of anyone's hooves and I have yattered-on enough as it is. I will get pics the next time I trim, now that the weather has cooled down and I don't need to have The Boys standing in front of the tub fans that could blow us all into the next county if we weren't so portly[Tongue]
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#38
We don't leave a farrier alone in the barn, ever. I watch and ask questions to the edge of annoyance. Both our previous (retired) and current farriers are very good, and their results are pretty similar. They are a huge resource, and at those prices I'll be da**ed if I won't milk them for information!

ILJ said: "WAAAAY back when I lived in Colorado, the farriers I used all did what looks just like the natural trim. They didn't call it that...they didn't call it anything, actually. It was just the way they did it."

I think that's still the way "they" do it. Looks like what ours get.
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#39
quote:
Originally posted by Arenadirt

We don't leave a farrier alone in the barn, ever. I watch and ask questions to the edge of annoyance. Both our previous (retired) and current farriers are very good, and their results are pretty similar. They are a huge resource, and at those prices I'll be da**ed if I won't milk them for information!

ILJ said: "WAAAAY back when I lived in Colorado, the farriers I used all did what looks just like the natural trim. They didn't call it that...they didn't call it anything, actually. It was just the way they did it."

I think that's still the way "they" do it. Looks like what ours get.



Neither of my horses have ever been trimmed when I wasn't in attendance. I have always been fortunate that I could schedule my farriers visits to when I can attend.

Just for clarification, it was EZ that lived in Colorado. [Smile]
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#40
The new farrier came yesterday and confirmed my fears about Joe's white line being stretched. She was very thorough and stopped to show me issues and explained why she was doing what she was doing AS she was doing it. A REFRESHING change of communication!

ALl of Joe's feet showed the stretched white line. Two of them showed bruising on the sole, and one of those (RB)also had live sole exposed in the toe area.

Before trimming she took the time to talk gently to each horse and let them sniff her thoroughly and all of her tools.

She really takes her time on each foot, but only takes the smallest amount off from underneath of the hoof using nippers. She takes more off from the top using rasp and finishes the rounded adges and the entire hoof with sandpaper.

She doesn't touch the frog at all and removed dry flaky sole until it wouldn't flake off any more. She trimmed the hoof wall down and shortened his bars to the height they should be.

She suggested it would be best for Joe to take him off any sugar in his diet, she suggested we take him off the Nutrena Safe Choice and put him on just a very small amount of plain oats and she also suggested flax seed and free choice Red Cal minerals.

Since our pastures have been so rich in red clover and alfalfa, we need to keep them off any of the fields that still have those legumes left in them.

We also discussed Black seed sunflowers and a M30 vitamin that she uses on her horses and she also stated that she uses DE (diatomaceous earth---food grade--) as a natural dewormer.

She will remove more and more flare each trim. Here are some of the photos of this trim.

LB

[Image: DSC_0054.jpg]

LB

[Image: DSC_0055.jpg]

LF

[Image: DSC_0059.jpg]

LF

[Image: DSC_0058.jpg]

RB

[Image: DSC_0067.jpg]

RB

[Image: DSC_0069.jpg]

RF

[Image: DSC_0063.jpg]

RF

[Image: DSC_0061.jpg]

LF before trim:

[Image: DSC_0034.jpg]

LF after trim:

[Image: DSC_0039.jpg]

LB before trim:

[Image: DSC_0035.jpg]

LB after trim:

[Image: DSC_0040.jpg]

For Rocky his left front showed some stretching on the white line, but that was his only foot. Interesting thing about that foot, when Rocky was about 7 months I noticed that the LF was slightly turning out and addressed it with the 2nd farrier and finally the guy I have been using for the past 3 years. These two farriers have all tried to 'correct' the leg by trimming (at my request). The first guy did such a terrible job, that Rocky's leg actually turned out more! I only used him once!

Most of Rocky's heels had 'rolled' a term I had never heard before. The new farrier told me that it was because the heels were 'probably' too long and showed me what she meant.

Rocky's LF before trim (none taken after):

[Image: DSC_0031-1.jpg]

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